Questions about kicksin (c/c)

Azaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Questions about kicksin (c/c)

hi, I have a couple of questions for my kicksin..
i'm thinking about this build:
1st hand claw: fool's gt 40ias (2x um)
2nd hand claw: ?????
3shadow 20fcr 2sox circlet (15ias/15res + 20life/15res)
maras amulet
enigma
arach
raven
fcr ring: ar/str/life/(resist)
trang gloves

I don't know what to use for my 2nd hand claw:
-since prebuff is allowed, a 6venom gt is useless (except for the 3shadow skills)
-I don't want to use bartuc's, since I want this assassin to be my leading char and I don't need crapitems on it^^ and bartucs will not ever be that great^^

cb vs ow:
-I heard cb is better for a kicksin than ow, but before that i heard cb is overrated, what do you guys think?

If cb is better:
-wouldn't guillame + 2-15fcr assa amu be the best choice?

-and if cb/ow is that important, why are shadows beter than gores then?

-does the +% attack rating from claw mastery work @ kicks?
 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

First question: PvM or PvP

If PvM, then you don't need Enigma so much as you need CoH. PvM Kickers need CB and a little Ow, so an Upped gores goes here. Shadow Dancers is said to be better due to the higher kick dmg, but an upped gores provides more CB and OW if you need it. If not, Dancer's can't hurt. Guillaume's with IAS/Res jewel is great and the CB is amazing. For weapons, the PvM kicker is best with weapon / shield (mostly a Stormlash + StormShield or something, maybe LW). Dracs gloves too.



If PvP, then C/C is a great way to go, but you're going to be mostly vs casters. You have the needed 65% fcr, which is good. You don't need a 3 shadow circlet if you can get a 2 sin, but it'll do for now (especially since you have it socketed with some res, life and IAS). Enigma WILL be needed. CB isn't as effective in PvP, so not usefull. A c/c Kicker will stun the opponent, tele-kick and repeat. For the second claw, Bartuc's is perfect. You'll have an AWSM of -30, and you hit the 46% already, so you just need the + skill and fhr.

This sin willnot be your ace char unfortunately. You can give it a Chaos Claw to WW some opponents, but you'll have to stick with caster killing (melee and smiters will eat you alive).



And, the + AR% does not affect kicks in any way. It only affects melee attacks that include a claw.
 

Azaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

First question: PvM or PvP

If PvP, then C/C is a great way to go, but you're going to be mostly vs casters. You have the needed 65% fcr, which is good. You don't need a 3 shadow circlet if you can get a 2 sin, but it'll do for now (especially since you have it socketed with some res, life and IAS). Enigma WILL be needed. CB isn't as effective in PvP, so not usefull. A c/c Kicker will stun the opponent, tele-kick and repeat. For the second claw, Bartuc's is perfect. You'll have an AWSM of -30, and you hit the 46% already, so you just need the + skill and fhr.

This sin willnot be your ace char unfortunately. You can give it a Chaos Claw to WW some opponents, but you'll have to stick with caster killing (melee and smiters will eat you alive).



And, the + AR% does not affect kicks in any way. It only affects melee attacks that include a claw.
if i go for a 2sin circ and on the 2nd hand a 5ls gt and on 1st hand a 3ls 40ias fool's claw, would this be a way to kill melee using lightning sentry?


 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

That will not be strong enough unless you focus on traps as well.
 

Azaz

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

ofcourse I need to focus on traps aswell then^^ but i mean would this make the kicksin better vs melee or not?
 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

It would, but Kickers in general aren't great in melee. I'd stick with killing casters.

Have you considered This guide?
 

wizAdept

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

Thats a horrible mageslayer guide lol. Like most things in the strategy compendium it is horribly outdated and bad to start with.

repost of my guide:
I noticed every few days another pvp kicksin thread would pop up on this forum and I'd end up giving the same copypasta advice over and over again. Although I dont have a full guide written out, these snippets are advice I give out to players looking to make pvp kicksins.


At the moment I have this caster slayer guide c/c kicksin here: (originally posted on diabloii.net)
If you're looking for a 1.11 c/c kicksin for specifically killing casters, you should be looking at a pure enigma build.
Aim for:
-max kick speed (this should only be an issue if you want a faded build, if you use BoS ias problems dissapear, check the ias tables thread to see if you can fade with whatever setup you're using)
-65+ cast
-86+ fhr
-60%+ weaponblock
-maxed resists
-slvl 23 or 29 kick after +skills depending on if you want 4 or 5 burst kicks, do not exceed this.

Your basic skill layout should be:
x dtalon (as mentioned before, slvl 23 or 29 after +skills)
1 flight
20 venom
20 mindblast
1 ls
1 wof
1+ shadow master
rest of points to raise weapon block to 60%

after that you can choose to max shadow master or get more weaponblock, your choice.

Your primary claw should have high ow%
Gloves should be trangs, boots should be shadow dancers.

ways to obtain 65+ cast bp:
trangs/arach/circlet/ring
trangs/arach/griffons
trangs/arach/circlet/amulet
trangs/circlet/ring/crafted amulet (ow belt setup)
trangs/arach/ring/crafted amulet (coa setup)

Stats should be as much in vita as possible for a caster killer, try to get enough +stats on your equipment for base str/dex.

If you dont need a particular jewelery slot for fcr:
high budget amulet of choice: something similar to stormhide: +2asn/+res/+dual stats rare
low budget amulet of choice: cats eye

high budget ring of choice: +dual stats/+res/+ar rare
low budget ring of choice: second ravenfrost

You can also use the second ring slot as a utility slot for wisp/dwarf if you want to bm. (not recommended)


For claws, you should decide on if you want a fade or BoS build. imo kickers are best suited to use BoS with high frw to r/w in combat a lot. Fade may make for easier resists however, if you choose to fade, this means you need to reach 7/3 kickspeed, this is not achievable on all claw types.

For 2x runics or 2x gt (-30wsm) you need 46 ias to hit the bp, ias can be from anywhere except the offhand claw.
For runic/feral (-25wsm) you need 56 ias
For runic/wristsword (-20wsm) you need 68 ias
If you want to fade its recommended you use a claw with 40 ias as primary, this makes reaching these bps easier. If you use BoS this all doesnt matter much, look at the ias tables thread, notice you can hit 7/3 kicks on BoS even with slow claws.


Primary claw needs to have high ow%, this means:
Malice (bos only claw)
Fury gt/rt
UmUmUm artisans gt/rt of quickness
UmUm fools (bos only claw)
UmUm fools gt/rt of quickness

Offhand claw:
+6 venom claw with facets
jade talon (good way to get resists for BoS kicksins)
bartucs (good +stats to build around for low budget setup but not as good as +venom claw for higher budget setups)


For claws that can spawn with staffmods, (magic or runewords) you are looking for +3venom staffmod.



Here are some sample low budget setups:
fade build:
enigma
arach/trangs/griffons shael'd
cats eye
2x ravenfrost
+venom fury gt/rt
bartucs
sdancers

BoS build:
enigma
arach/trangs/griffons shael'd
cats eye
ravenfrost
+5 replenish/+stats ring
+venom malice (claw type doesnt matter)
jade talon (facet'd or res jewel)
sdancers


For a high budget caster killer kicksin build:
enigma
trangs
2/20/+ circlet socketed with 15/15ias jewels
ow/fhr/str crafted belt
2asn/stats/15+ fcr crafted amulet
ravenfrost
10fcr/+stats/res ring
UmUm fools gt/rt of quickness with +venom
+6 venom gt/rt socketed 2x 5/5 facet
sdancers


So as you see kicksins are customizable depending on what you can obtain. Just aim for the goals I listed in the first post, thats really the important part to making the build work at any budget level.
Hope that helps.
This guide is kinda old actually, I now prefer 102 fcr c/c for caster killing, see my d2pk setup in this thread. All the points in the guide still hold valid however.
w/s builds are basically same goals as caster killers except you have stats for maxblock SS, and use that for dr% and block. c/c switch in stash will make things easier when you are dueling casters.

A listing of weapons you should consider as a pvp kicksin here:
On my kicksins (d2pk build and east nl build, they use about the same gear, some differences are noted) these are the weapons I carry:

Um'd fleshripper - primary w/s weapon, what I use most of the time unless otherwise stated.
Um'd dweb - owns anyone who skimps on resists. good players will stack on poison resists which makes death's web useless, which is why I use fleshripper with 75% ow as my primary weapon, but if dweb can pierce, it will pk.. very very fast.
Um'd wizardspike - 102+ cast with a SS, some ow, nice stack res. I use this for facing blizzard sorcs, or when I need speed like vs multiple bowzons/sorcs, good pvp weapon to carry stashed, weak vs pallies and barbs. Good weapon for playing a support/stun player when in teams.
Lacerator - yay amp. I have found Um'd fleshripper to be superior in every 1v1 matchup to lace but lace is decent and fun to use when there is a druid/barb/bowzon on your team.
Jewelers caddy of the Magus socketed UmUmUmUm - <.< good luck finding one of these things. I havent seen it in use on bnet but from testing some d2pk kicksins did it seems like a good alternate way to reach a w/s 102fcr setup while having gg ow%

Ber'd SS being shield in w/s obviously, sometimes spirit monarch for 102+fcr/dweb or fleshie but usually the rule is if you are on w/s it's to have 50dr/maxblock/gg blockrate with SS. Otherwise c/c for casters if you don't need dr or block. Gear yourself for the biggest threat. If there is a bvc in the game you should be using a SS unless you like being torn up in 1 triwhirl. If you are dueling a bunch of fb sorcs/trappers/necros, no reason to be on w/s is there? w/s would actually make the duel harder. If there are both barbs and necros, use w/s and expect a difficult duel.

Primary claws:
Artisan's runic of quickness socketed 3x Um - once again OW% is one of main sources of damage for a pvp kicksin. Fury runic or gt is just about as good if you can't get ahold of a ArtoQ or AgtoQ.
Fools rare rt with 40ias and other mods socketed 2x Um - Fools does work on kicks despite not showing up on the character screen. On d2pk my kicksin uses a fairly rediculous rare claw of this type. On east my kicksin uses a magic fools of quickness with 2x Um.
Malice +3 venom claw - 100% ow and venom, great claw for BoS since you don't need ias on your weapon. Make sure to have 5+ replenish to malice doesn't eat away at you.

Offhand claws:
3shadow disc /3 venom facet'd claw - yay more damage. Possible to get 2k+ (depending on number of skillers, I get 2k on my d2pk build and 1.8k on my east kicksin, and I dont use full skillers on either) venom damage unbuffed on a c/c enigma setup with this.
Jade talon - when stacking resists is necessary. I use one with a rare 30 light res jewel on east when I need to stack res.



There are some other weapons I have seen kicksins use, I don't carry them because of stash room restrictions.

These are:
Doom warspike - Decent weapon overall. I just find it doesn't give much advantage in any duel except those kicksins have a class advantage in anyways. So no point to use it really. Some kickers like to kvk with it. I like to pk those with fleshie.
Um'd azure - Meh.
Chaos gt - Can be used for moving around in ww to position yourself to kick. Kinda useful. Otherwise as a kicking weapon, see Azure comment.
Beast warspike - eww fade build, no mobility on w/s = weaksauce.
lastwish or stormlash - keep these for pvm builds. very gg pvm. very bad in pvp.

There are also other weapon choices I have not seen in use on bnet that should work pretty fine.
Like jeweler's phase blade of quickness socketed with 4x Um. Nice style points.
Would I use it in a srsly serious duel instead of Um'd Fleshripper? Nah.
Basically you *really* want your primary weapon in pvp to be a source of ow%, but mods like elemental pierce, +fcr, slow, resists, and so on are reasons to carry other weapons in the stash. You always want at least some ow% on your weapon imo. Um runes own.

There are some specialty weapons like my d2pk kicksin carrys a stashed 5x poison facet, 15ias/30coldres phase blade. But.. thats not a weapon people should really worry about getting. I haven't had to use it yet, but there is a reason it's there. <.<

On a side note I havent been impressed by physical damage kicksins at all. They all try to use beast for physical damage and it's just not worth it. Never seen them be any good, really didnt see beast as a worthwhile weapon when I tried it. Some try to cap out their physical damage using beast with phoenix/fort and they just suck pvp. Enigma always ftw, BoS whenever possible, and Ive never seen a beast using kicksin be any good. You need to boost dtalon to maximize in physical, which means long kick sequences, which ends up with the kicksin dead in pvp. And the damage is not worth it either.

Oh.. and every once in a while I see players using grief on kickars. +damage does not work on kicks. lol?
some important goals to remember no matter how you configure your pvp kicksin:
There are a bunch of ways to configure a kicksin just make sure to have these:
enigma
20 venom
20 mindblast
1 dflight/1 light sentry/1 wof/1+ shadowmaster
65+ fcr (102+ possible)
48+ fhr (86+ recommended)
9fpa traps/max kick speeds (this should be no problem as long as you use BoS)
venom/ow% as your main source of kick damage
and my east/d2pk setups listed here:
If youre wondering my east pvp kicksin uses:
2/20/30frw/res circlet 15/15ias jewel
trangs
arach
fcr/stat/replenish ring
shide
raven
enigma
shadow dancers

Um'd flesh
Um'd wizardspike
Um'd dweb

Ber'd SS

+3 venom malice (primary hand)
fools gt of ias% socketed UmUm (primary hand)
+6 venom facet claw (offhand)
2/2/50 jade with 30light res jewel (offhand)

4x shadow/fhr
3x shadow/40s
2x 5/5fhr
rest 5/5frws


My d2pk kicksin uses:
Cham'd 08 valk
2/20fcr/30str/20dex caster amulet
2x fcr/15dex/40hp/res rings
trangs
arach
enigma
shadow dancers

Um'd fleshripper/Ber'd SS

rare 2/3venom/fools UmUm runic
6 venom facet claw offhand

2x shadow/fhr
5x shadow/50
1x 5/5fhr
2x 7015
rest 5/5frw


As well as a heavier hitting 65fcr ow%/str/fhr belt/ res circlet switch. Although Ive really come to like 102fcr on a kicksin now.
And some video recording of kicksin dueling here:
recording of my w/s kicksin build on a priv server (not bnet) in a kvk duel, this should give you an idea of how a kicksin should duel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T0Hx7votAg
recording of same kicksin on c/c setup chasing a necro:
http://media.putfile.com/first-d2pk-fraps-victim-
bnet recording of how to duel against a barb:
http://media.putfile.com/trev-avb-01
bnet recording of a pvm kicksin (build not meant for pvp) dueling a common fire sorc, although its not meant for pvp I still use 65fcr/86fhr on that build so it still functions much the same way:
http://media.putfile.com/gert-04-low
d2pk recording, how to properly duel a smiter with a kicksin 1v1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rch5Al6O87s
btw some footage of my current d2pk kicksin setup in action against a caster:
http://media.putfile.com/kicker-vs-vita-necro <- this is 102fcr/86fhr, c/c, 50% ow, 2k venom ~.~
enjoi guiz.
 

mephiztophelez

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

hey w1zAd3pt....

why don't you polish that guide up a little and post it in it's own right?
 

Sass

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

I'd like to see your take on an updated, more thorough C/C kicker ;)
 

ChenCanete

Diabloii.Net Member
Hey, wizAdept!

Can I jez say "Whoa!", the PvP vids were amazing. Great tips for what build I might want to have when I finally go PvP.

(I'm a noob SP, and I'm trying to specialize as a kicker.)

And, yeah, you might want to take up meph's suggestion: try posting your guide by itself --- may provide options for other sin builders out there. :eyelash:
 

Kordova

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

i made a pvp kicker
this is my gear and i do juuust fine
3ls Malice claw(100% OW)
Bartucs/bartucs-prebuff
malice/bartuc-more LS malice/jadetalon-more rez
shako/veil of steel-till i get 2/20%/rez/os circ
nigma
shadow dancers
arachs
ang ammy(will be replaced soon)
raven
fcr ring-ar/str/life(ang now but if i use ammy y not ring)
3 trapgc's, putting trap dmg at 1.2k 1 shadowgc(ft for trap)
bunch of ele dmg sc's

sorcs, necros,windys(with great difficulty),fohers,zons,poopy zealers,sins are hard if i dont sorb all fall to me!!!
 

vknez

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

i have put fools mode claw on my kicker and surprise-surprise. no ar gained. doesnt matter 1st or 2nd claw
why is that? is it laying character screen or feature?
 

mephiztophelez

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

the LCS strikes again!

iirc: the AR/Level from the fools mod will work, but won't be displayed on the LCS.
 

vknez

Diabloii.Net Member
Re: Questions about kicksin (c/c)

the LCS strikes again!

iirc: the AR/Level from the fools mod will work, but won't be displayed on the LCS.
i guess it will not be patched in 1.13...
at first i was dissapointed when i saw no change, then it come to mind about lcs...



 
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